Mr. Colvin distributed a summary of proposed 2002 changes to marine finfish and crustacean regulations. The Council’s discussion focused solely on the proposed 2002 recreational regulations for scup (porgy) and summer flounder.

Fluke Measures

Before the Council debated the relative merits of the several alternative size limit/possession limit/seasonal closure options available for fluke, Mr. Wise asked any visitors or guests to inform the Council which option they supported.

Capt. Neil Delanoy of the Captree Boatmen’s Association stated that the Captree Boatmen’s Association favors a 16.5" minimum size limit, 4-fish possession limit, and an open season from 15 May – 31 December. He reported that a meeting was held earlier in the day between representatives of most party and charter boat associations and ports around Long Island and DEC staff to discuss fluke options. All industry representatives in attendance agreed to support the following combination: 16.5" minimum size limit, 4-fish possession limit, open season of 04 May – 27 September. This was seen as a compromise that most of the charter and partyboat industry could support.

Capt. Jimmy Schneider of Huntington pointed out that no charter and partyboat captains from North Shore ports were present at the meeting described by Capt. Delanoy. He stated that an early start to the fluke season was critical on the North Shore. Starting later in May would be disastrous for the industry on the North Shore. Capt. Schneider stated that a 17" minimum size, 7-fish possession limit, and open season of 02 May – 31 October would be fine for the Long Island Sound fluke for-hire industry.

A Point Lookout partyboat captain felt that a 17" minimum size limit was too large and would wreak havoc in the fluke for-hire fishery. A 16.5" minimum size limit was essential. He supported the combination of 16.5" minimum size limit, 4-fish possession limit, 04 May – 27 September open season.

John Mihale noted that the 16.5" minimum size limit carries with it a higher risk of exceeding the 2002 recreational fluke quota, which, if it occurred, would trigger stricter measures in 2003 if the quota did not go up in that year. He also reiterated his concern that these regulations should not be changed every year. Capt. Tom Marconi complained that establishing multi-year regulations is not the answer to the problem. The solution lies in having DEC more flexible and able to change regulations quickly to reflect changing conditions in coastal fisheries.

John Mantione of the New York Fishing Tackle Trade Association indicated that it was the consensus, although not unanimous position of the Association’s member businesses to support a 17" minimum size limit, 8-fish possession limit, and no closed season. He encouraged DEC to take under serious consideration a recreational fluke management system in 2002 that had differential measures applied to different sectors of the fishery.

Capt. Paul Forsberg of the Montauk Fishing Fleet spoke in favor of a 16.5" minimum size limit for recreationally-caught fluke.

Ms. DeeDee Bradshaw of the partyboat Dorothy B supported a 16.5" minimum size and suggested that the 0.5" reduction in size limit and the 4-fish possession limit should prevent the 2002 catch from exceeding the recreational fluke target. Seventeen inch minimum size limit is too large for fisheries conducted on the west end of Long Island.

Councilor Melton indicated that he could support a 16.5" minimum size limit but not a 04 May opening day; he felt that the west end fisheries needed an earlier start date, such as 01 May. He felt that 16.5", 4-fish possession limit, and an open season of 01 May - 22 September was the best option.

Councilor Davi suggested that no changes should be made in the recreational fluke measures for 2002. Referring to the poll/survey results in Nor’east Saltwater, he noted that 48% of the respondents to that survey wanted to keep the current 17" minimum size limit. Mr. Davi moved that the Council recommend that no change be made in 2002 to the current recreational fluke measures, which are 17" minimum size limit, 7-fish possession limit, and an open season of 02 May – 31 October.

Mr. Melton objected that he had actually earlier made a motion that the Council recommend that DEC implement option 5a for the 2002 recreational fluke season: 16.5" minimum size limit; 4-fish possession limit; 01 May – 22 September open season. Councilor Danielson was concerned that dropping the size limit ran the risk of resulting in a catch that exceeded New York’s recreational fluke target in 2002, which might mean a higher size limit and an even lower possession limit in 2003. Mr. Melton stated that giving the western Long Island Sound ports the ability to start fluke fishing on 01 May rather than 04 May more than offset the several days lost to the fishery in late September. Councilor Freierman spoke of the earlier position recommended by Capt. Delanoy (16.5";4-fish; 04 May – 27 September) that apparently reflected a broad, although not unanimous consensus of Long Island’s charter and party boat industry. She felt that the Council should give this position great weight in formulating its own recommendations. Councilor McBride spoke in support of Mr. Melton’s motion. He said it was the responsibility of the Council to see that the various state marine fishing industries were maintained as well as possible. Mr. McBride suggested that the state implement separate regulations for the fares of charter & party boats and those fishing recreationally for fluke by other modes. This has been done in Massachusetts, whose boats are drawing New York fares away from the New York for-hire fishing industry. Mr. Melton’s motion was voted on and defeated by a vote of 6 in favor; 6 opposed; 0 abstentions.

Councilor Sullivan motioned that the Council support the following option: 16.5" minimum size limit; 4-fish possession limit; open season of 04 May – 27 September. Capt. Schneider reiterated that, in his view, this option, because of its later opening season, would severely hurt north shore charter and party boat operations. He again noted that the group of charter and party boat captains that had met earlier and resolved on this option did not include representatives from several North Shore ports. Mr. Sullivan’s motion was adopted by the Council by a vote of 12 in favor; 0 opposed; 0 abstentions.

Scup

Mr. Wise began the discussion of 2002 recreational scup management options by asking for comments from the floor on which of the available options were best.

Capt. Paul Forsberg spoke against all of the scup proposed options. He stated that New York must adjust the possession limit so that an open season of 15 June – 15 December is attainable, along with a 9" minimum size. One way to do this is to split the recreational possession limit on scup between recreational fishing (25 fish) and fishermen aboard for-hire vessels (50 fish). Several party and charter boat captains supported this suggestion.

Capt. Tom Marconi said he could accept a 10" minimum size on scup but needed an early opening season to counter the competition from New England-based for-hire vessels.

Speaking for the Captree Boatmen’s Association, Capt. Neil Delanoy said most party boats were doing well last year late in the season. An earlier closing season poses more problems that a late opening season. He asked for a recreational scup season closing date no later than 30 November.

John Mantione of the New York Fishing Tackle Trade Association said his association could support a proposal that include an open season that began on 15 June and ended as late as possible in the fall. He also stated that a reduced possession limit that allowed for a longer season would be acceptable.

Councilor Melton asked DEC whether it could project the impact of a split in the possession limit between for-hire vessel anglers and all other recreational fishermen on achieving the necessary fishing mortality reductions for scup. Ms. Alice Weber of the DEC responded that, if all anglers had a 25-fish possession limit, a bit more than 16% reduction is achieved, more than the necessary 15% fishing mortality reduction.

Mr. Colvin stated that, previously, split recreational possession limits in the scup fishery were not allowed in the scup fishery, but this has changed and ASMFC now allows different regulations applied to different modes of fishing, as long as the statistical robustness of the mortality reduction projected from this approach is adequate. Mr. Colvin said he did not know whether the data on New York scup catches by fishing mode would satisfy statistical requirements. Mr. Colvin also stated that it had been the Department’s perception that the Council had historically opposed reallocation of harvesting opportunities within the recreational fishing sector, which a split possession limit of the sort being discussed would entail. Mr. Wise reminded the Council that it had supported the 2-fish possession limit on striped bass for for-hire vessel anglers.

Councilor McBride stated that he felt the typical private boat scup angler could "live with" a possession limit of 25 fish. It should be possible to make an accommodation for the needs of the for-hire vessel fisheries, especially the party boats, which need the 50-fish possession limit. Six-person charter boats can, in his view, can live with a 25-fish possession limit for their fares.

Mr. Melton asked what would be the impact on the duration of the open season for scup if a split possession limit were enacted. Mr. Colvin stated that this would take some time to calculate. It might allow a for-hire vessel open season start date of mid-June, but the numbers would have to be worked up to see if this was, in fact, the case. He doubted that it would be. Even with all anglers, including those on for-hire vessels, at a bag limit of 25, we are only 1% over the necessary mortality reduction. The open season might be increased to "capture" this 1% exceedance over the necessary reduction, but it will not take many days to consume this 1%. To institute a split recreational possession limit on scup and then to adjust downward the possession limit on anglers not fishing aboard charter/party boats to allow those anglers fishing aboard party/charter boats a 15 June start date may result in a very low possession limit for the non for—hire vessel scup anglers, i.e., below 25 fish. Mr. Colvin stated that DEC’s perception was that most of the charter/partyboat industry was more interested in extending the season in the fall than starting the season earlier. He noted that the above 1% exceedance goes a lot further in the fall at the end of the season than it does at the beginning of the season.

Councilor Danielson indicated that he would like to hear back from the DEC on what open season possibilities might exist if a split possession limit were instituted in the recreational scup fishery (50 fish for anglers aboard for-hire vessels; 25 fish for other recreational anglers). If the open season impact of such an approach is very small, he suggested the Council support one of the alternative options (10" minimum size; 50-fish possession limit; 01 July – 24 October open season).

Councilor Freierman moved that the Council recommend to DEC that it again consult with representatives of the for-hire vessel industry on the open seasons that might result from a split possession limit that included a 50-fish possession limit for anglers aboard for-hire vessels. Mr. Colvin stated that he thought DEC could meet with representatives of the for-hire vessel industry from all of Long Island’s major ports. He welcomed any formal expression of interest on the part of the Council in split possession limits or related differential management measures according to mode of fishing.

Councilor Danielson suggested that the motion be amended so that the Council could enunciate a fall-back recommendation if the split possession limit had, in the final analysis, only a trivial impact on open season duration. He reiterated that he thought an acceptable fall-back recommendation would be a 10" minimum size; 50-fish possession limit; 01 July – 24 October open season. Mr. Wise felt that the Council had had too little time to consider in any depth the relative merits of the different combinations of minimum size, possession limit, and open season to select one as an appropriate fall-back. He felt that DEC had heard enough during the public comment period on the various options to identify which was the most acceptable.

Mr. Colvin said that, at the moment, the Department’s perception is that Option #1 is probably the most preferable. Option #1 provides for a 10" minimum size limit, 50-fish possession limit, and a 13 July – 17 November open season for recreational scup fishermen. Councilor suggested that start date of the open season under Option #1 was too late for those engaged in scup recreational fisheries on western Long Island.

Ms. Freierman’s motion was adopted by a vote of 10 in favor; 2 opposed; 0 abstentions.

Councilor Danielson moved that the Council recommend that, if an acceptable result does not obtain from the discussions between DEC and the for-hire vessel industry called for in Ms. Freierman’s motion just passed, the Council recommend that DEC moved to implement the provisions of Option #1 for the 2002 recreational scup season (10" minimum size; 50-fish possession limit; 13 July – 17 November open season).

Capt. Tom Marconi of Sheepshead Bay stated that a 13 July season start date would kill recreational scup fishing on western Long Island. Capt. Neal Delanoy said that most representatives of the for-hire vessel industry could accept the provisions of Option #1, especially if the season was adjusted so as to end 30 November. Based on these comments, Councilor Danielson amended his motion to recommend a 10" minimum size, 50-fish possession limit, and an open season with a start sate set so that the season extends through 30 November. This is as a fall-back to an unacceptable outcome to the discussions provided for is Ms. Freierman’s motion. Seconded by Councilor Melton. Mr. Danielson’s amended motion failed by a vote of 2 in favor; 8 opposed; 2 abstentions.

Councilor Sullivan moved that, as a fall-back to Ms. Freierman’s motion, the Council recommend to DEC that it implement the provisions of Option #2, 10" minimum size limit, 50-fish possession limit, open season of 01 July – 24 October. Mr. Davi seconded the motion. Councilor Jordan asked what extension of the open season in the fall might be achieved by opening the season on 06 July? The estimated answer is that the season would not close until early November. Councilor Freierman spoke against the motion, indicating she felt the Council was not in a position to fully consider the merits of the various options on the scup table of options. Council Sullivan withdrew his motion.